On Your Mind: Mental Health And Wellness With Kerry Biskelonis
We are at our best when we act from a place of clarity. When we can quiet the noise, we can feel better. On today’s podcast, Timothy J. Hayes, Psy.D. brings on Kerry Biskelonis, the Founder and Practice Director of reset brain + body, a mental health and wellness counseling practice in Plymouth, Michigan. Recognizing stress as the root of most modern health issues, Kerry believes we have to learn how to release the pressure and let the stress go… and that takes work. Thankfully, that’s what they offer at the practice. Tune in to this episode to learn more about integrative mental health care and how you can create calm in your brain and body.
Kerry Biskelonis is the Owner and Founder of Reset Brain and Body, an integrative mental healthcare practice in Metro Detroit.
Kerry, thank you for joining us here.
Thank you for having me.
I was wondering if you could let us know how you got started in the work you’re doing and what it is that drives your passion.
I am a career changer. I started out my career in corporate human resources and I set out on that path hoping to help people. I would say six months into the career, I learned that corporate human resources were not about helping people. It was about helping businesses. I joke that it took me a decade to get out of that career. What drove my passion to make that switch was that I was seeing many people stressed out, professionals that were burned out that weren’t able to handle the ups and downs of being a busy professional, being unable to balance work and life and take care of themselves. I realized that there was a better way to help people and work with them more directly. After about a decade in corporate HR, I went back to grad school.
At the same time, I was practicing a ton of yoga as my own way to handle stress. It is in grad school that then I learned about the beautiful congruences between the two practices, mental health and yoga, and decided to then move my career in the direction of that integrative aspects. That is the thing that lights me up the most. Seeing how we can combine brain science and brain training with the bodywork into this comprehensive approach to working with people that makes mental healthcare more accessible. It creates an experience for people that they leave a session truly transformed both physically and mentally.
Our hope is to try and bring awareness to people like you who are trying to offer something other than the traditional allopathic, let’s suppress this symptom or take that medication. How do you get most of the people coming to you? What is the source of people learning about your work?
I am a Chicago transplant. I’m a big city girl that moved to a sleepy suburb in Michigan. I like to say that I brought my big-city energy to the suburbs. I started cold calling and networking the moment that I opened my practice. It so happened that I connected with people that loved what we were doing here. They spoke the same language as far as yoga, meditation and mindfulness. One of the first populations that bought into the work that we’re doing here at Reset is the local school district. We started working with teachers, staff, and then they started referring students over to us as a great option for kids to work on emotional regulation and to have that gateway into mental healthcare.
Since then, my husband says it’s a spider web and we’ve been open for a few years. We have grown exponentially. Half of my clinicians right now have a waitlist. I have a team of ten. It started out just me. It’s coming in at the right place at the right time, having a strong messaging and a strong brand as well has been important for us, people know Reset. They know what we stand for and being open to exploring the different clients that come to us and adapting and pivoting as we see what the community needs.
Is there a theme to the kinds of people that come to you asking for different symptom patterns or different problem patterns?
I love working with people that are afraid of therapy because those are the people that we’re trying to get. It’s the rookie, the newbies to mental healthcare. The ones that are timid to walk into that door and have no idea what to expect. That is the bulk of our clientele. People that have never been to therapy before, people that see us as this accessible approach that is not intimidating, that’s welcoming. We don’t have a clinical type of setting. You walk into our space and it feels like a boutique or a spa. That was intentional to make people feel safe and comfortable and not feel like they’re going into a healthcare office. People come in with a lot of feeling stuck, stressed out, anxiety, depression, but a lot of times they feel off and they haven’t known how to name it. We help them by saying, “You’re experiencing some pretty significant trauma. You have a lot of symptoms related to depression,” and we help them make sense of what they’ve been experiencing and give them that psycho-education and then the tools to manage it.
What are some of the tools that you offer your clients?
The first thing is awareness. We always build a foundation from awareness and we use a mindfulness-based approach and also CBT, but we go through what we call the cycle of stress here, but we talk about what are your stressors? What are your thoughts? What are the emotions? What’s happening in your body and what have been your typical reactions? We help them break down that cycle then to come up with more mindful responses to what’s going on in their life versus staying in that reactive hamster wheel. We are also helping them find the tools to release what they’re going through, release the emotion versus recycle or repress it, which we then know creates more chronic conditions.
Among the tools that you offer, you mentioned CBT. For our readers, what are those initials representing?
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. For the people that don’t speak in mental health jargon, CBT is your basic way of working in mental healthcare. It’s the most approachable. It’s the most tangible for clients to understand too. We go back to say, “Let’s break down your stressors. Let’s look at your thoughts. Let’s look at your behaviors and how those all relate and then how you can be empowered to shift that pattern.”
Do you do different breathing techniques? Do you do yoga poses with your patients? What are you doing?
Yes, we do breathing techniques. We do mindfulness exercises that are both cognitive-based and physical based. We do yoga, we play art therapy, journaling, and we use affirmation cards. We use different games, a way to create this holistic approach of access to someone’s emotions and whatever else is going on. Some people do well with verbally processing. Other people hold a lot in their body or other people are more creative. We make sure that we have an outlet for each client to meet their individual needs and their own way of working through emotions, trauma, intrusive thoughts, all the things that are impairing their mental health.
You’ve used the word mindfulness a couple of times now and I’ve been around long enough to know that for a lot of years, we didn’t hear that term, even though over 50 years ago, Jon Kabat-Zinn was talking about that. Can you give us your either short or comprehensive definition for whenever you’re putting out a phrase like, “We do mindfulness work. It’s mindfulness-based?” What does that mean to you?
I love that question because the definition of mindfulness has become muddled in the fad of mindfulness. The typical public interpretation of mindfulness is clearing your mind and coming to this calm and Zen state. That’s not what we do here. We can create that through breathing exercises and some guided meditation, but mindfulness to me and the way that we practice it here at Reset is about building awareness of yourself and of your reactions and being intentional with your responses. It’s being able to observe as a witness to what is going on internally and externally without judgment. I say without judgment also meaning without reaction. To be able to observe the anxiety or the panic come in and not immediately respond to it, not engage with it, but be a witness to it.
Mental Health And Wellness: Be open to exploring the different clients that come to you and adapt and pivot as you see what the community needs.
In that observing, are there specific techniques that you use to introduce people to that observing state or awareness at the moment?
Yes. We do a couple of things and each of our clinicians has their own specialty in cultivating that observation. For me, I do a meditation. It’s an observation type of meditation in which we bring up a triggering event, thought, fear, whatever it is and then allow ourselves to get to a grounded in center space to then step back and observe it. It’s a skillful meditation and a lot of our clinicians do the same thing. We also use bodywork. The ability to feel something in your body, sit with it, observe it. We do this through guided meditation work where we start to see whatever that discomfort is that it lives in the body as more fluid, as more adaptable. We can start to work with it in a way that isn’t all-consuming. A lot of this work too stems from IFS, Internal Family Systems work. We get a lot of inspiration from that framework, as far as being able to access tough emotions without it consuming us. Doing it from a place of intention and setting yourself up and setting the client up to feel safe and grounded when we explore these things.
Are there other actual tools that you teach people to empower them to be doing work between sessions?
I always like to give clients homework and most of our clinicians do as well, and it comes down to practicing this work. As much as we do an hour session each week, they have hundreds of hours outside of our work together to be able to put this to practice. I like to talk about it like brain training and to think about your mental healthcare as like going to a gym as doing bicep curls. You have to do that work for your mind. One of the things that we always prescribed to our clients is meditation, starting a meditation practice. It could be for 2 minutes or 20 minutes. One of my favorite homework assignments to give to someone is to set a timer for about seven times during the day.
Every time that alarm goes off to drop and give me 90 is the way that I talk about it, but the practice of mindfulness meditation for 90 seconds, 7 times a day. It becomes almost like this interval training for your brain, but it’s teaching them at that moment, “Can I pay attention to my breath? Can I anchor down? Can I let my thoughts go by without engaging in them in the middle of chaos?” That alarm will go off in the middle of when you’re emailing or cooking dinner, putting your kid to sleep. That’s like, “Drop and give me 90.” Other things that we tell them to do are different breathing exercises. We ask them to journal a lot. We ask them to be more self-reflective to come up with different affirmations or mantras way of talking to themselves. A lot of the work in developing this practice is taking note of the awareness in that keep a log for a week of what thoughts are coming up? How are you reacting? Where do you think this is coming from? We can use that to explore and dig a little bit further as to why that’s continually showing up for someone
One of the things you talked about, either in our prep call or in this interview, is the idea of trauma. Can you say what you’ve learned about the role of trauma in the issues that people are bringing to you?
I love to talk about trauma as a big T and small T traumas. Most of us have small T traumas, like micro traumas that have happened multiple times throughout our life to affirm a particular message or belief that we have about ourselves. It’s that limiting belief. It’s that belief system that is the driver of many of our cognitions and our behaviors. We have to peel back to say what was happening maybe around 1st grade, 2nd grade when the brain’s starting to develop and create meaning out of all the data they’ve collected as a child. How did then that shape how you perceive yourself and the world? Most often, a client can reflect on something tangibly when they were 7 or 8 years old that was like, “I remember that happening. I remember then developing this meaning about myself or the world.”
As we know, through confirmation bias, our brain works and is lazy to then continually reinforce that message. I’m trying to think of a good example of something that doesn’t feel like a good, big deal in the time. I can talk about my personal experience when I was 7 or 8 years old. I remember standing next to a pool and being told, “You shouldn’t be looking that way, suck in your stomach.” At that moment at 7, 8 years old, I was like, “Something’s wrong with me. Something’s different about me. I don’t look as good as everyone else.”
At 7, 8 years old, I have this belief and this storyline that I’m not good enough. My body isn’t good enough. I must compensate. Maybe now I become the one that has the big personality or I’m the class clown. That doesn’t feel like a trauma at the moment or even as you’re thinking about it twenty years later, but it was. It was a moment when your belief system was changed about yourself because of external influence. You were told something by yourself that ended up adapting your perception of yourself. For my example, it started a decade long process, if not longer, of body image issues, which have their own lingering traumas. I like to talk to clients that trauma feels like an intimidating word, but it is looking at what are some of these things that have happened throughout your life that have shaped it in the way in which you look at yourself and the world. They don’t have to be catastrophic things that happened. It can be little micro-events or messages.
Those little events that we give meaning to create the templates that we put on the present moment. I had somebody did a piece of work or basically was listening to somebody else process some work. This person said, “I don’t like the idea of going back and digging through my history and digging through my past.” I instantly thought of David Whyte in an interview he did with Krista Tippett. He said, “The Irish have a saying. The thing about the past is it’s not the past.” That flashed in my mind. I responded to this person by saying, “What’s happening here is not us going and digging through the past to find out what’s happening in the present moment.” It’s that the past, my energies, emotions and beliefs about it came flooding into this moment and blocked me from having access to my skills, my experience, my history, and I was stuck. I was frozen or I was acting the way I did when I was seven years old and I felt incompetent or somehow damaged. When you help people look at or uncover either the small T traumas or the big T traumas, what’s the next step for you in helping them?
I had a client that came in not that long ago. She came in because she said, “I need to work on the trauma of my dad leaving, of that abandonment. It feels like it has changed everything for me as an adult and changed my childhood experience. I need to get over it. I need to figure out how to work with it and let it go and heal from it.” I said, “Let’s do it.” I had to build rapport and to get to know her a little bit more, but after about three weeks, we felt comfortable doing that observational meditation. She comes back a week later and it was a great experience. She had released and she felt like she was able to observe it without being triggered.
A week later she comes back and she said, “I thought this process was going to take years and I feel good about this. I feel like I’m over it.” Not over it in a way that you’re going to forget about it or it doesn’t still shape her life, but she’s no longer emotionally reacting to it. I was as happy about it as she was and I was like, “We don’t have to go and revisit this for weeks.” She was able to get there. She was able to package it. She was able to put it over there, separate herself from it as another event that has occurred in her life without evoking this giant emotional reaction every time that it comes to her mind. It wasn’t stuck anymore. She was able to reprocess it.
We have to look at the relationship with the client to determine when they’re ready for that experience. I have never believed that someone has to be in therapy for years of their life to heal from certain things. Usually, if we use the right tools, we can reprocess that stuff and move on quickly. Therapy becomes more of this maintenance mode. More of this, “Let me have accountability. Why don’t I come in and we start working on prevention and adjusting different aspects of our life so that we are more resilient when things come up?” That to me is the beauty of this work is that it isn’t always this intense reprocessing of trauma. It’s incredibly forward-moving, empowering and inspiring.
That’s the benefit of the different techniques that have been developed in the past. Now it would be more like 30 or 40 years, but it’s those solution-focused approaches, those techniques that help people resolve the effects of past trauma. It helps people understand that it’s their interpretation of life events that are interacting with this energy system. They call a body to either put them in fight or flight or put them in freeze mode and that they can get access to that dynamic. It’s an internal process and that their experience of life is more about their choice of how to interpret and respond to it than it is the external life events.
I love that quote from Viktor Frankl and I hope I don’t mess it up, but he talks about how we have to create space. In that space lies our freedom. The space between stimulus and response. That’s exactly what we’re trying to do with clients. We give them enough tools, enough awareness to be able to create space and say, “I get to choose how I respond to this moment in the present or to how I respond to this trigger, this reaction that’s coming up.” To me, that is such empowering work because we’re changing our experience of life and how we respond to different things in life.
You mentioned Viktor Frankl and I realized as soon as you did that many of the people reading this may not know Viktor Frankl, but he wrote the book Man’s Search for Meaning. It’s a product of a lot of things, but one of the key themes in that book was he was a death camp survivor. If he could learn to choose joy in life even through that set of circumstances, teachers like that can let us know we can choose an interpretation of life events that let us choose joy.
It’s important to recognize that no matter what has happened in our life, we aren’t permanently broken or damaged. I heard this quote and I don’t know where it came from. I wish I knew the source, but what they said, “The definition of a pessimist is that the future is certain. The definition of an optimist is that the future is uncertain.” I love that so much because in teaching resilience and adaptability, we’re allowing people to be open with what the future looks like. Yes, that can cause anxiety, stress and overwhelm, but it also is full of possibility and hope. What we don’t want is someone looking in the future and saying, “This has happened in my life. Nothing will ever go good for me.” How many clients do we hear from that say, “I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop because it always does. Nothing ever works out for me?” When we can shift that framework, we’re changing or helping someone change their experience of life and what they have to look forward to. Now, more than any other time, at least in my life, we need hope.
There are people like Nelson Mandela who spent 26 or 27 years in prison and refused to give in to the hatred and got out and said, “Let’s heal the country.” There is Roger McGowen who spent 26 years on death row in Texas for something he didn’t do. He decided to choose to focus on the good stuff and do spiritual readings. He’s become a spiritual teacher. Messages of Life from Death Row I believe is one of the book titles that Pierre Pradervand wrote, a book based on Roger McGowen’s letters to him from death row. I know that if other people can find joy or happiness or a positive interpretation of life even in those extreme circumstances, I can do it in my life. Do you find that there’s a certain symptom pattern that you’re most excited about working with or you get the best results with whether it’s depression or anxiety or obsession?
In my career, it’s changed. When I first started in private practice, I was not yet a mom and I loved working with busy professionals like how I identified myself. Busy professionals dealing with stress and anxiety. As I evolved as a human, I realized that how I worked with my clients evolved as well. It’s something I love so much about this work, but now being a mom of two kids, I love working with moms. I love working with postpartum depression and perinatal mood disorders. I love being able to give moms those tools and the hope that they can overcome this and they can manage this. I also love working with kids because I see the joy that comes from watching kids learn something and be in awe of something and be able to take accountability for themselves. I see that with all of my clinicians, too, that as their life has moved around, so have the type of clients that they work with.
If you think about one of the most influential factors in your therapy, whether it’s a person or a book or a life event, what would you say that is?
Personally, it has to be my yoga practice because if I had never had a yoga practice, I’d never learned that personal experience. Yoga was a conduit for me to feel the effects of meditation and to feel the effects of mindfulness. Me personally experiencing that influenced this practice and how I work with every single one of my clients. My clients don’t have to have done yoga. They don’t have to have a yoga practice even. It’s that I know what that feels like, that calm, that centering, that clarity. I know how influential it can be. Therefore, that’s my gift that I can try and pass on to a client and teach them how to garner that themselves.
Mental Health And Wellness: Mindfulness is about building awareness of yourself and your reactions and being intentional with your responses.
That felt sense that you have of the benefit you get from being mindful, from being awake and aware to the whole energy system gives you something to work from and gives you something to try to put out there as a goal for your clients to achieve that. However, they do it, if they do it through yoga, they do it through their own methodology, but you have this felt sense of solidity and health within you. You’re trying to impart that to them.
That’s why Reset is unique in that we offer all these different integrative approaches. It may not be yoga for someone to be able to come to that mindful and grounded space. It might be art, it might be play. It might be some type of movement. I love that our different clinicians can play around with that for clients. As we know, meditation is not about sitting there cross-legged for twenty minutes for everyone. You can get to that meditative state in many different ways. That’s what I want to provide clients. It’s breaking down that barrier of what you can do to get to that feeling. I’m sure you’ve felt it. It’s that knowingness, that wisdom and the more that we can cultivate that and create a practice for clients to access it. The better off they are, the more resilient that they become.
As you’re talking about that, my experience with leading a support group for the past few years. It’s a 2.5-hour group. In the first hour, we listen to or watch some teacher talking for an hour. It may be a part of a 3 or 4-hour presentation and we’ll watch an hour of it. What flashed in my mind when you were talking about that now is that consistently, if we have 8 to 15 people in that group, 2 or 3 of them every week will be drawing or coloring because that’s the best way for their mind to bring in, to take in the talk and the lecture. Two or three people will be there scribbling notes almost constantly. Others never pick up a note, never get distracted. Some sit with their eyes closed and let it come at them. Helping people find what works for them to have an experience of their health and their strength and their internal resources, it’s not going to be the same for everyone.
You bring up such a good point in that. This is what breaks my heart about the experience our children have in the education system because we’re taught that there’s a right way to learn and there’s the right way to pay attention. If you are doodling or you are closing your eyes, then you’re doing something wrong. How so much shame can be created at such a young age because we’re not celebrating the unique ways in which people process. It’s something that I’m passionate about reframing for kids when they come into our practice. A twelve-year-old comes in and thinks that they’re a failure or something’s wrong with them or appearance. “My kid is not focusing and they’re not following the rules, they’re getting in trouble.”
Maybe it’s not about them doing something wrong. It’s about the system not working for them. You can tell I’m passionate because I have two kids of my own. I don’t want a system and arbitrary rules to tell my child that they’re not good enough. How much then of these messages that people are getting 7, 8 years old, have driven these belief systems that’s outside of their control because they don’t fit into what is culturally more traditional?
There’s that great line, I forget the author of the quote, but the idea is if you judge the fish on its ability to climb a tree, it’s always going to feel like a failure. We do that without realizing that. A lot of the work we do in therapy is helping people question all of those assumptions, the beliefs and the dogmas. I know that personally in my own work with people for years now, I’ve been trying to help people see the benefit of living from direct observation, as opposed to from belief or from ritual or from dogma. What that’s going to reveal is that I probably am not going to learn exactly the same way somebody else does. We have somebody in one of our groups. We have a specific tool that is taught in that group. She doesn’t get much out of the tool, but she will think, asked to be shown something, get an image in her mind and then draw it in each group.
She gets the energetic shifts, the emotional releases, the insights about her work from drawing. I told her not too long ago that she should start an art therapy group. She said, “I don’t have any training in art therapy.” I said, “You’ve gotten more benefit out of art as a therapeutic approach than most people with degrees in art therapy.” Essentially, from decades ago when people would come to me, I’d say, “Here’s what therapy is about. Therapy is about helping a person learn more about what motivates them, what makes them tick, what gets them stuck, what makes them happy, sad, frustrated. When they learn about that, then they’re going to be better equipped to make the decisions that only they can make in their lives.”
That’s the opposite of what you’re talking about with our approach to schooling where every kid has to sit at the desk and only get up at recess and etc. I agree. It’s a super blessing. I would encourage you to turn away from the negative emotions that flood up with that or do some release work about it because your kids are in a great position to have you as a mother. Even if they have to go and sit at a desk for a while and it causes some consternation, they’re going to have your support to redefine that. It’s less about their difference and to be an advocate for them.
Thank you for bringing that up because I feel that. That’s exactly what I tell my clients too. I work with many parents and they’ll say, “I’m afraid I’m screwing up my kid.” I’m like, “No, be aware and learn and try and get to understand how they’re talking about themselves. If you have that awareness and you give them that attention and help them, then shift those stories and reframe those beliefs, you’re good. We’re all going to do something that’s going to screw up your kids. It’s about can we pay attention enough to help them work from that?”
For a lot of years now as a therapist, you’ve probably had the same situation that people come in and they’ve got messes in their lives. They were raised by people who were raised by people who were hurt by people who raised people who were hurt, etc. A lot of times when people come in and they’ll read something I give them to read or we’ll have a discussion about how they might approach something differently. They’ll flashback to the last 5, 10 or 20 years in their life as a parent, how they’ve screwed everything up, they’ll want to moan and wail. I say, “Take a breath or two, slow this down.” Realize that 80% of whatever your kids learned from you is going to come by modeling what you do. Not the lectures you give them, not the PlayStation removal, not the grounding.
If you make a course correction now, even after 5 or 10 years of being a not so good parent, you’re going to give your kids one of the best gifts they’re ever going to get. That’s a living, breathing example that they’re never too old to learn, grow and change, and become the person they would like to be. Unless you have a time machine. If you do, please let me know. I’d like to ride in it. Unless you have a time machine, bemoaning what you did last week, last year, ten years ago is a waste of your energy. It continues to pile the negativity on. If you learn, if you grow, if you change, you give that gift to your children of the living example that they’re never too old to learn and grow and change. That’s all we’ve got is this moment.
The work for people is releasing the blame and the victimhood that they find themselves in because of that generational trauma, because of the things that happen to them and the way that they perceive that things happen to them. Often, we have to teach people how to create meaning out of adversity so that they don’t hold onto so much resentment, which impairs their ability to change and to heal.
When you say that, I flash on the book The Sixth Stage of Grief where this is a gentleman who used to work with Elizabeth Kübler-Ross. You said the word meaning. That’s the sixth stage of grief. He talks about how to find meaning even in the tragedies and the losses we’ve had and it is transformative when we can do that.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Conscious Leadership Group, Jim Dethmer’s group out of Chicago. He’s incredible. He wrote this book The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. I reflect back on that when you asked me what’s the thing that has shaped my career, driven my passions. I said yoga practice. I would also say this group and his work because he takes everything we’re talking about but he puts it in a framework for business leaders. It’s incredibly palatable. He talks about the meaning and he talks about how we have these different ways of interpreting life and how things have happened. We have the victim, we have the martyr, we have the hero.
Usually, after an interview like this, I ask people like you, “Do you know anybody else that I could interview that might be good?” That’s what’s digging in my brain, The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership. You said he’s got a book on that or he does a group with that?
That’s the book. His actual business is called the Conscious Leadership Group.
Do you participate in some of their programs? Have you had coaching with him? What’s the connection?
I did. Right at the beginning of my career, I went to the Mindful Leadership Summit in DC and he was there. I had already read his book and I can’t remember how I came across it in the first place, but I was such a fan. I was able to see him in person and have since followed along and shared the book with many clients and family members and friends.
I know we’re running out of time because on my end, I’ve got a hard stop. I wish we had more time. Before we wrap up, there are two things I wanted to ask. One of them is do you have anything where you offer your services with telehealth or online that we could reach a broader audience or offer people?
We are located in Michigan and we do offer teletherapy all throughout Michigan. That’s where our licenses are ethically allowing us to. If we work with anyone outside of the State of Michigan, we go by a coaching and consulting model, which is a different informed consent and a different way of working. We provide services and support across the country that way.
Mental Health And Wellness: Trauma feels like an intimidating word, but it is just looking at the things that have happened throughout your life that have shaped the way you look at yourself and the world.
People could find out about that at Reset Brain and Body. ResetBrainAndBody.com. Is there anything else that I haven’t even touched on yet that now pops into your head that says, “I got to get this in,” about you, your practice, something that you think a tidbit would be useful for our readers?
For anyone reading, it’s important to remember that mental healthcare therapy might be intimidating. It might be scary to take that first step to be vulnerable but doing this work and getting comfortable with the uncomfortable will change your life. Whether you choose to work with Reset or another clinician and other therapists, I empower everyone to start the process. You don’t know how good your life can be until you start working on your mental health in a consistent and intentional way.
I forget the gentleman, but he did a short TED Talk on emotional hygiene and there’s a psychologist with a twin brother. He talked about how he was completely triggered. He woke up to realize that he’s teaching people wonderful tools for emotional hygiene that he’s not even using himself. When we train these kids at 4 and 5 years old to know to wash their hands and brush their teeth, we teach them all about physical hygiene and we don’t teach them about mental and emotional hygiene. I love that. Thank you for your time. I wish we had more. I’m sure that if we kept talking, more things would pop into my head. Please consider sending me thoughts you have about other people that might be good for our audience to hear and learn about. If you start a new project or launch a new program, give me a call and we’ll arrange another promotional of it.
Thank you, Tim. It was a pleasure talking with you.
It was a pleasure talking with you. I appreciate your time.
You too. Take care.